I wrote this comment on an athiests page and Nikk said that I should post it here.
I was also raised in a Christian home, but I remeber at a very early age questioning everything that my parents tought me and what the Church taught me. My parents always encouraged questions and told me that if I didn’t know why I believed what I did then there was no point in believing it. Some people are raised in Christian homes and feel brainwashed, others like me, are encouraged to make our own decissions about Christ. The question I would pose would be, does our upbringing, or our experiance with the church or other Christians, have any effect on reality? Does the way your Sunday school teacher taught you make God real? Does someone teaching your about Christ from birth make it false?
As to your oposition to the God of the Bible, well I’ll try to keep this a short and maybe clarify as we go along. When we read through the bible, do we question if God was justified in condeming the Angels that fell (satan and his buddies) to eternal condemnation. Do we think that it is unfair for them to spend an eternity in Hell without hope of redemption? Yet we think that we are so much better. The problem is we fell, we sinned, and God did not have to have His son come to this earth to die for our sins. He could have let us all join Satan in hell, but He provided a way for us. If God is God, then we have no claim to heaven, and it is only by His grace, for His glory, that we are saved. Not because we’re all good people and this world should be happy and full of sunshine. By his grace and His glory alone. God does not owe us anything. He gave us a perfect world, without pain, without death, without suffering, and we’re the ones who mucked it up.
Please feel free to add your own comments
Hi Laura,
I was just wondering why you are bothering with doubting Thomas at all. He is a self proclaimed atheist who says he is searching, but, he has an answer to everything and he doesn’t accept the bible. I’m sure the gospel has been proclaimed to him dozens of times since he took this stand, hey, even I did, but obviously it hasn’t moved him. The bible tells us to give our message and then if our message is not received, was the dust off the soles of our feet. I know whiteman said I sounded narrow minded, but my standard is the gospel, and I don’t think quoting anything outside of God’s holy word will make sense next to it. that’s not my real email address by the way, but i can make it available if you like.
I can understand where you’re coming from, but if you knew me you would understand that I do it as much for my own enjoyment, as anything else. I am not trying to convert him, I believe God would have to reveal himself for that, but I have always enjoyed a back and forth argument, and if it’s about God or the Bible all the better. I love being challenged and asked questions, and having to put my arguments into words on paper, (I’m a better talker then a writer). I love questioning things and then reading scripture and asking for wisdom and then have that moment where I get it, or when God offers me the faith that I need. I also find that it causes me to research things that I usually wouldn’t, like evolution or Buddhism. I know you say that he’s asking questions but doesn’t really want answers, but he’s not the only one reading his blogs. There are a lot of people who have similar questions, and if I can answer some of those questions for them, or direct them where to look for some answers then I’m ok with that.
Amber… Im not sure if you thought that I wasnt looking at this blog or what? but thanks for that. It makes me feel good inside. And to adress the point you made about not quoting anything outside the bible, I must say that, it is indeed incredibly narrow minded, and condescending.
My standard is the bible as well, however I dont sit and throw scriptures at an atheist who doesnt believe that it is true, the same way that a muslim throwing verses of the Quran would not affect you because you dont believe in its validity. The thing you have to do with atheists is to take an argument to their terms because using nothing but the bible will not get you anywhere with someone who does not believe in it.
Terribly sorry if I come across as harsh but I have seen too many people lost because all someone has done is throw scripture at them and say that they are going to hell.
!)avid
Amber –
Although Laurel is my sister and I love her deeply, I am behind what you said 100%. I don’t agree with arguing for the sake of arguing, and I was disappointed to read that you enjoy arguing Laurel. Ephesians 4:3 says “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” I hope I’m not taking that out of context, but I strongly believe that arguing for the sake of arguing is wrong.
I have also found in the past that arguing over religion tends to leave a bad taste in people’s mouth, rather than a hunger for more. If someone claims to be athiest – that is their right, as it is our right to be a Christian. Arguing about it doesn’t help the cause, and I’m not just trying to say you’re wrong Laurel, I’m just agreeing with Amber because I believe what she said is right. (I’m Amber too so let’s not get confused… lol)
David, you have every right to believe what you believe. You are bang on when you said “I come have seen too many people lost because all someone has done is throw scripture at them and say that they are going to hell.” – that is a fact that disgusts me. I detest those kinds of Christians.
I don’t think that Amber meant you aren’t worth talking to. I think she meant that if you don’t agree with each other, it’s best to agree to disagree and spend your energy and time elsewhere. Battling against each other with no ground to gain is just pointless. I can also see where you’re coming from when you say that making a point from the Bible doesn’t hold any ground with you because you don’t believe in it. This is why, like Amber said, we all need to move on.
Hope you’re not mad Lo, I’m just putting in my two cents. Love you.
No problem Amber, but you really should check out the blog site that we’re talking about before making any comments. This guy is an athiest who has put out some very good questions about the Bible, the site is designed so that people on both sides can discuss their views, there is nothing negative about our conversations so far – we’re argueing point for point but it is a place set up for that type of conversation. We’re not name calling or fighting, we’re discussing important issues and so far I have found my interactions with the people on the site to be respectful and enjoyable.
Hey Lo – no worries, I still feel the same way though – arguing for the sake of arguing is just not for me, even if it is enjoyable. I still agree with Amber’s comment “The bible tells us to give our message and then if our message is not received, was the dust off the soles of our feet.” I wasn’t commenting really on the site or what he said. I was mostly agreeing with her statement and adding to it. You said “Feel free to add your own comments”…. LOL (Love you)
Alright, since you don’t like the word argue we’ll switch it to debating…lol…
Anyways,
In all things I hope to follow Pipers words of widom, to speak the truth in love, being neither truthless in our love or loveless in our truth.
Well aside from the fact that I have yet to “debate” for the sake of arguing I see not point in stepping away from a person simply because they seem unreceptive to the scripture that gets spit at them when they dont believe in the book anyways. I do and have for several years, felt called to some form of apologetics, this has fanned the fires in my sould and made me feel the closest to God that I ever have. So while some may simply throw some scriptures smack them in the face with a bible a couple times then walk away and wonder why they didnt get saved, I stick with it and take the “debate” on their terms.
Even if you look at Paul in Acts 17 it says “and Paul as was his custom went unto them and for 3 sabbath days REASONED with them from the scriptures.”
That verse has had more of an impact in my life than almost any other, So you see you cant just spew the bible and then walk away, take some time and actually TRY to help.
!)avid
Well I don’t think that I ever said that I argue for the sake or argueing, I did say that I enjoy it, and I do, but for a whole host of reasons. I echo your feelings (!)avid) about apologetics fanning the fire in your soul, although at this point I feel that require so much study and prayer and wisdom and have such a far way to go before I can be useful in that regard.
For anyone else reading this, the reason I posted this blog was not so much the fact that I was talking to an athiest but the whole thing about the angels and Gods soverinty. When we read the bible we don’t question if God was justified when He condemned the fallen angels. As Christians I find we often think that we deserve something from God, like He owes us something and we get an attitude that we deserve our salvation. Just as He didn’t give the angels a second chance, He could have done the same with us, but He didn’t.
The more people question the unfairness of God the more I am directed to His grace, and how much we don’t deserve it. It is by grace we are saved and there have been so many moments lately where I feel totally blown away by the grace of God. Worship seems so much sweeter when I realize what I am actually thankful for. It’s not just Gods love for us, and the good things He does for us, it’s His grace.
It almost seems as if all those saying I do not argue for the sake of arguing are arguing over whether they argue for the sake of arguing or not.
so true